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the Bible makes a lot of references to marriage and sex and places a lot of strict guidelines on what is acceptable or not. however I do not believe that God put those guidelines up for no reason; I don't believe He's the type of God that prohibits actions that do not have a sort of consequence that we as human beings would be better off without

murder, for example, is maliciously taking the life of another human being. the murderer is causing harm not only to the other person, but also to himself by desensitizing him to death and further evil actions. theft is cheating another person out of what he has due to selfish desires and not caring about anyone but himself. coveting is similar and often leads to theft. dishonoring parents denotes a lack of respect and love, and again reflects selfish thinking and malice. lying is deceptive and manipulative and like the others reflects selfishness and a lack of love toward others

if you look at the first four (I'm taking these from the 10 commandments for the sake of convenience) God wants full respect and devotion towards Him. the first commandment prohibits placing something else in a higher position than God, the second prohibits creating and asserting one's own interpretation of the nature of God over the real God (sometimes this involved making statues that were called idols), the third prohibits invoking God's name where it does not belong (like swearing or perhaps using God's name to justify something that is not of God), and the fourth requires people to set a specific day aside for the purpose of honoring God

now I skipped adultery because that seems to be the main subject in this debate. what could be defined as adultery?
    Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
if you ask me it seems that when Jesus was talking about adultery here in Matthew, He was defining it as not only an act of sex, but also as dwelling on a lustful, self-seeking desire to have sex

fornication is similar to adultery in a sense because they are both driven by the same thing (lustful desire) only in "fornication" the perpetrator is not married, while in "adultery" the perpetrator is married

given these definitions, what then (if it can be classified as sin) is homosexuality?

if a homosexual is married to a member of the opposite sex, and they betray their partner to have sex with someone who is of the same sex, I feel that qualifies as adultery because they had sex outside of the union they had already pledged themselves to; the perpetrator is married, therefore it is adultery

now in fornication the sex act is the same and based off the same desire, but in this case, the perpetrator is seeking sex with someone who is married, or with a prostitute, or with multiple people in all, due to lust. if God defines marriage as the "union" (sex) then a man who has sex for the first time is not necessarily fornicating unless unless he leaves the partner and goes after another

now here's my next question: could homosexuality, if the homosexual is not married, be considered fornication?

let's take two cases: one, the homosexual in question is a male teenager and has sex with another male, but later on leaves his partner for another and has sex with him. this no doubt should be seen as fornication, am I correct?

case two: the homosexual in question is a male adult who finds another male and chooses him to be his partner for life, then they lie down together and have sex. is this fornication?

homosexuality, by definition, is an enduring sexual and romantic attraction to the same sex. is as much a part of the homosexual person's nature as heterosexual orientation is to a heterosexual person's nature, and according to nearly every respected psychological organization out there, is a completely natural and psychologically healthy variation of normal sexual orientation. therefore it cannot be a lust, but a morally neutral basic human drive, like a heterosexual drive, only towards members of the same sex instead of the opposite sex

but is a homosexual act fornication? not necessarily, if fornication ultimately involves multiple sex partners. it cannot be adultery either because no one is married. therefore if it was a sexual sin it could not be defined as either one of the two

the question now is whether any form of intercourse that does not involve both a penis and vagina is indeed a sin. this itself is a debatable subject because one can argue that God originally designed the vagina with a penis in mind; therefore going against that would be deviating from God's plan and thus, be considered sin. however, there appears to be somewhat of a double standard here considering God does not necessarily prohibit non-vaginal sex within a marriage, and the sexual sin mentioned throughout the Bible is more focused on how and why you have sex instead of what part of your body you have sex with. therefore the aspect of homosexual sex cannot be wrong simply because the body parts do not match up

could it be a sin because it was practiced in cults?

I've been doing some research lately on cult philosophy and the reason behind their obscene homosexual activities and cross dressing and found that they did this in order to emulate androgyny, or the aspect of being both male and female at once. their religious practices included fertility rites and rituals meant to symbolize the duality of male and female in sex. androgyny was seen as the two things at once representing the completion of male and female into one body, which was sacred and worshiped by the cults. they often participated in sex rituals that emulated androgyny, which included role reversals and homosexual sex in order to make themselves more androgynous

now some [many] people are born androgynous or hermaphroditic (approximately .5% of the population) and they cannot help that. why then is androgyny such a bad thing?

the problem with cults like these is that they strive for androgyny in order to transcend the natural human boundaries and become more godlike. it's an idea that seems to have descended from the motive behind the Tower of Babel, which was based on a philosophy much like transhumanism. the core idea of transhumanism is that human beings can reach perfection through a combination of all our talents, knowledge, religion, gender, technology, and others into one superbeing and become like a god (if anyone is familiar with Star Trek, it's a philosophy much like that of the Borg)

so with this in mind, is homosexuality in itself actually wrong?

I stated before that I do not believe God would prohibit something simply because He wanted to, but because there are consequences for actions. He is not unreasonable and would not make a rule for the sake of making a rule (the Garden of Eden could have been an exception because at the time the world was perfect and Adam and Eve did not have to be told the difference between right and wrong, but at the time God wanted to give them the option to obey Him or not)

as far as I can see, there are cause-effect consequences for every sin mentioned in the Bible down to murder, theft, adultery, fornication, disrespect for authority, lying, coveting, and others. if homosexuality was a sin, then it would be a special sin indeed, considering the fact that homosexually oriented people who commit themselves to a single same-sex partner for life are just as happy as "traditional" one-man-one-woman heterosexual couples. homosexuals who have had only one partner in their lives will not likely contract sexually transmitted diseases, whereas having more than one partner at all regardless of sex greatly increases that likelihood. interesting

let the debate continue
to my friends from #DARel-PhiForumClub


and everyone else who's interested lol

journal here [link]


dangit this took all afternoon yesterday and my dad was all like dnevdbdhfmdkdncbc
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:iconlibertades:
Libertades Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Pal I was feeling hopeless as usual and so I read this I hadn't seen before...

hey... really, this, even though I believe it, it's getting to me... I can't stand it, no one believes me... they won't because "they believe God" they won't because "I'm just a person ion sin" I'm so tired... that sometimes I even doubt myself and wonder if what I'm doing is really something that God wants me to... how... how do I even know if I am not being tempted and all of this turns out to be false...? what if...? it's what I always wonder... I can't be happy... not unless I can finally live with this...
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:icondadona777:
shit I took too long to log back into dA to reply to this

I will say one thing right here and now: just because people say something doesn't mean it's right

you are falling into a trap. you have information that these people don't have and don't care to learn, but you're letting yourself be swayed by their personal uneducated opinions. the current time has (most) everyone believing homosexuals are wrong, just like in the past when slavery and racism and misogyny was "ok with God"

keep in mind: these people have not received a special revelation from God. my dad used to tell me that whenever he read the Bible he "felt" God telling him marriage was only for "man and woman," but when I read it, I felt just the opposite: that genitals don't matter to God, only your heart. were either of us receiving a personal revelation from God by "feeling" these things? I can't say, but I do know for a fact that one's feelings toward something are heavily influenced by their current feelings and previous experiences. in other words, my dad's feelings were most likely coming from what his father and pastors said as well as his personal distaste for homosexuality, while my feelings were most likely coming from what I knew about God's love and how I felt toward people of my sex

feelings should never be your entire basis for belief. feelings are manmade and they fail. pure intuition is not reliable. when it gets down to it, you need to look at the facts. read the Bible. study the context. don't read into it things that are not actually there

PS: if people refuse to listen to you on the sole fact that you're gay/bisexual, there's something wrong with them
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:iconlibertades:
Libertades Sep 21, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I got a response from my pastor about the information I showed him.

He said it was all lies.

He said about "thou shalt not lie" that it wasn't about idolatry; he said he had even researched and translated by himself and he said God will never accept homos; he basically said the versicles were NOT talking bout idolatry and they instead forbade everything like incest, bestiality and homosexuality,he even showed me a whole hand-written report by him pointing at "your mistakes" and saying you were turning the bible in your favor...
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:icondadona777:
also did he say "homos" because that was very immature
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:icondadona777:
I really don't know what to say right now to this guy. I honestly cannot believe his response. any decent scholar will tell you 18:22 was a direct reference to temple cult prostitution--even the anti-gay ones. if anyone is "turning the Bible in your favor" it's him

my God :stare:
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:iconlibertades:
Libertades Sep 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Well, I... am really into a pressure right now and issues with my personal self and family... I'm getting so tired of these sick lies and hidden things... I just want the truth! He said it was all lies becausehe analized it and pointed at the things God was trying to teach, he even said it was a sin because since sodom practiced it, it was forbidden, also... if it were true... how come similar things like incest and relationships before marriage are so wrong!? If you ask me incest is like the same; if they love eachother why not (not meaning I like the idea...) and if they really love eachother why do they have to be forced to marry even if they are planning to before marriage? their intentions are the sin aren't they? so...?

Sorry, I do want to believe but I need to act like I don't so you can throw me all you know and make me snap out it....
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:icondadona777:
I am extremely tired and angry rn because I am fed up with people so I apologize for my cynicism
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:iconlibertades:
Libertades Sep 25, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It's fine, I understand.
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:icondadona777:
also because the police here in TX are pieces of shit I tried calling them on my dad but they dropped the case and I am so mad
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(1 Reply)
:icondadona777:
where do I even begin with this idiot (I am going to use a lot of swears because this is frustrating I am sorry if it makes you uncomfortable or something I will be saying fuck a lot)


first of all, where the fuck does the Bible say SODOM AND GOMORRAH WAS KILLED FOR BEIGN GAYE. that's right: nowhere. you can dig through the entire fucking book and you will not find one indicator that gay sex was the sin of sodom. they were greedy and inhospitable and they worshiped foreign gods. they also tried to fucking gang rape angelic strangers. OH YES THIS IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS GAY MARRY IS A SIN NOW. I AM SUCH SMART. and don't get me started on the ones who say O WELL IT SAID THAT BUT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN SO THEY PROLLY HAD THAT TOO. bullshit. absolute fucking bullshit. with these types there is no such thing as logic. trying to justify homophobia using sodom and gomorrah is grasping at imaginary straws

comparing attraction to the same biological sex to wanting to have sex with your own sibling or child or parent or close relative is plain fucking sick. sexual orientation is an orientation toward a sex, not "I can have sex with anyone if they have this genital." people have standards. the histocompatibility complex determines what kinds of people you are attracted to and how different or similar they have to be. close relatives typically do not fit the bill. and if you are attracted to someone that closely related, there are so many other people out there in the world that you will be equally if not more attracted to. there is no sexual orientation that makes you only attracted to fucking your family

the Bible condemns incest outright. read Deuteronomy 27. there's a whole fucking list of curses in verses 15-26:

Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

notice how closely the bolded verses resemble Leviticus 18. wow. they condemn sex with relatives and sex with animals as worthy of a curse. surprisingly not gay sex. hmmm. very interest

(as for relationships before marriage, it really does not matter. the Bible isn't a sex manual. if you're planning on getting married and you have sex it's not a sin to have the sex)


I want to ask this guy a question. what in hell's name is the "lesson" God was trying to teach with Leviticus 18? is God trying to create a secret subplot in his fucking laws? God is not secretive. the Bible is straightforward. the beginning of Leviticus 18 says "do not do what the pagans do" and the end of Leviticus 18 says "do not do what the pagans do." is it not clear that God's "message" was "DO NOT DO WHAT THE PAGANS DO"?
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